Past guest (Episode 78) Ileen Dunivent has released her first children’s book, I’M LITTLE Girl. She illustrates the book with 19 original watercolors. It is available on Amazon. Link in the show notes. Today we’re doing something a little different with our second episode about The Song of Achilles. There has been a lot written about the Iliad’s Achilles and Patroclus, so we thought we’d highlight research and commentary from scholars around the world about their relationship. And, also bring in some information from the author of The Song of Achilles, Madeline Miller. The author of The Song of Achilles, Madeline Miller, says the following about why she wanted to pursue writing a story about Patroclus and Achilles. She says: “The central inspiration behind the book is the terrible moment in the Iliad when Achilles hears about Patroclus’ death. His reaction is shocking in its intensity. The great half-god warrior—who carelessly defies rules, and condemns a whole army to death—comes completely unglued, desperate with grief and rage. I wanted to understand what it was about Patroclus and their relationship that could create that kind of crisis. Although Homer tells us what his characters do, he doesn’t tell us much of why they do it. Who was Achilles? And why did he love Patroclus so much? Writing the novel was my way of answering that question.” Nancy says she’s read more about the Iliad over the last month, and is surprised at how closely The Song of Achilles aligns with the Iliad. She likes Miller’s interpretation about how it could be that Achilles’ reaction to Patroclus’ death is so extreme. For Miller, it’s because they are in a loving relationship. It is a missing piece of the puzzle, almost, in the Iliad that she fills in. Linda says crisis and trauma can bring people close, so in a way, its not surprising their relationship is so intense. Nancy notes that Miller is not alone in trying to better understand this relationship. In fact, it has been a point of inquiry since about as long as the Iliad has been around. Again, quoting Miller: “The idea that Patroclus and Achilles were lovers is quite old. Many Greco-Roman authors read their relationship as a romantic one—it was a common and accepted interpretation in the ancient world. We even have a fragment from a lost tragedy of Aeschylus, where Achilles speaks of his and Patroclus’ ‘frequent kisses.’ There is a lot of support for their relationship in the text of the Iliad itself, though Homer never makes it explicit. For me, the most compelling piece of evidence, aside from the depth of Achilles’ grief, is how he grieves: Achilles refuses to burn Patroclus’ body, insisting instead on keeping the corpse in his tent, where he constantly weeps and embraces it—despite the horrified reactions of those around him. That sense of physical devastation spoke deeply to me of a true and total intimacy between the two men. Linny says she loves Nancy, but will not be hugging her corpse after she dies! Linny will also not be hugging her husband’s corpse. Nancy talks about how hard it is to walk away from the graveside when a loved one has died. Linny acknowledges this is true and it makes her remember Little White Buffalo Girl in Joe Starita’s biography of Chief Standing Bear in I Am A Man (Episodes 57 & 58). Linny says if she was Little White Buffalo Girl’s mom, she probably could not leave her along the trail. Thinking of that, Linny says helps her understand Miller’s portrayal of Achilles and Patroclus. Nancy quotes Gregory Jusdanis who is the Humanities Distinguished Professor at the Ohio State University Department of Classics. He takes issue with the centrality of their identification as gay men and that their relationship would be something frowned on by Peleus and Thetis, among others. He says that, at the time, Peleus and Thetis “would not have been disturbed by the erotic turn of their son’s friendship.” Further he says, “Making them homosexual imposes upon them a fixed identity, like a heavy armor, an ontological essence foreign to antiquity and one that constrains behavior.” Jusdanis says it would be seen as reasonable, during that time period, for Achilles to be in love with Patroclus but also Briseis and for that matter, Deidamia, the mother of his child. Further, the British Museum website says of Achilles and Petroclus: “In ancient Greece it was common for men to have sexual relationships with both men and women. There were no words in ancient Greek for 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' and in classical Athens relationships between older, often married, men and younger men were a normal part of social life.” Linny says she likes the monogamous aspect of Miller’s portrayal of their relationship, even if it may not be historically accurate. Nancy says she would have liked to see the story more authentically portrayed because it would be an interesting way to understand a foreign culture. Linda notes that over the centuries, different cultures have dealt with their relationship in different ways. Other Greek writers of the period including Aeschylus and Plato did assume Patroclus and Achilles were lovers. But others have argued against that interpretation. Linny quotes Kristin Perkins a doctoral student at Columbia University writes: “Xenophon, a historian and student of Socrates, argued that Patroclus and Achilles were chaste friends and confidants. Later, Aristarchus of Samothrace (this was in 200s BC) would go so far as to edit Homer's text, particularly the ‘we-two-alone’ passage, to rewrite chastity onto Achilles and Patroclus' relationship, an interpretation Aristarchus viewed as both moral and historically accurate. In medieval readings of the Iliad, homoeroticism was almost universally denied through omission. In the Elizabethan era, Shakespeare's own text becomes evidence for the ambiguity of the relationship and the willingness on behalf of some interpreters to write in erotic subtext, but this interpretation was by no means universal.” Linny also notes that in the medieval period, Achilles was seen more as a cautionary tale of how NOT to behave. In fact, in Dante’s Inferno, Achilles is found in the second circle of hell, that of lust. Nancy thinks the Iliad and other classics have something timeless in their characters that reflect humanity’s complexity. Every generation takes a new look and interpretation of this timelessness. Miller’s interpretation reflects 21st century American viewpoints. Linny says she almost wants to read other books about Achilles and Patroclus, but probably not the Iliad! Linny says Nancy already has her reading a lot of books!