Nancy: Hi, Linny! Linda: Hi, Nancy! Nancy: Welcome to episode 71 of the Front Porch Book Club. Linda: The Front Porch Book Club is a podcast that meets twice a month. Nancy: We like to dig deep into the relationship between characters and the worlds they live in. Linda: Grab your book and iced tea and join us on the front porch. Nancy: Well, Linny, it was so nice seeing you last weekend. It was for a very sad reason. Our aunt died and the family all gathered in Eastern Iowa to celebrate her life. But we don't get to see each other very often. And so this was a wonderful chance to see you and mom and all of our cousins. Linda: It was really nice. It was a lovely service too. Justa celebration of who she was and seeing all her children and her descendants and the legacy that she's left behind and these wonderful people that we get to call family. It just Linda: It just made me feel really good. Nancy: And our cousins' kids, talking to them as adults now, they're all out of college. They're all so interesting doing such interesting things. Linda: Yeah, that just made me really happy. It's all worked out OK. We all parented and are leading the next generation along. I think it's a wonderful legacy for a woman a man just to have all of that family around. Like, that's your legacy. Those are your people. I won't know that. One child, I don't know if he'll ever have children. I don't know that I'm going to have that wonderful of a memorial service, but I just was really struck with the beauty of the whole thing. Nancy: Yeah, and where she was buried, she had not lived in that community for quite a number of years, but still old friends came. And it was just so fun seeing people make those connections and people from the less recent part of her life just remembering her as well. Linda: Yeah, it was lovely. It was lovely getting everybody together. And of course, seeing you Nancy: Yes. And we put together a puzzle with our cousin and our mom and our aunt. Linda: Yoga cats, I believe it was called. Nancy: Thanks, Denise for getting the yoga cat's puzzle. That was a fun one. Linda: Absolutely ridiculous. And we did it. How many pieces was it? We did it in like three hours. Nancy: I think, was it one of those thousand-piece puzzles? Linda: We're pretty good puzzle putter together people in our family. Nancy: We are. We've got a lot of experience. Linda: Give us a puzzle. We're on it. Nancy: Yeah. And that, that was grandma's legacy. She always has a puzzle set up in her kitchen when we came to visit. Linda: Yep. Well, that's why we're experts at it. Putting it together now. We were trained early. You start with the edge pieces. Let's go. Flip them over. Get our edge pieces. Let's, what are piece are you doing? What part are you doing, what cat are you doing? Okay. We'll feed you those pieces. We got it all down. Nancy: We do. And now we do that in our own families too. Linda: There's a way to put a puzzle together. Nancy: That's right. I got a puzzle for my family for Christmas and my son and I had that baby put together Christmas day and it was a thousand-piece puzzle. Linda: No problems. It was basically you, Denise and I, I don't know that mom and Audrey did too. I think they did, but it was mostly talking for them. Nancy: Well, that's what it's supposed to be. Linda: I agree with you there. I was just glad to be inside because the temperature was like negative two every day. Nancy: It was very, very cold. Linda: It was frigid. So being inside was fine with me. Nancy: Yeah, and blizzard conditions when we, when I drove over and you flew in, it was cold and snowy and it was good to be inside. Linda: Yeah. Heat's always good. Oh, you know what we need to talk about? Nancy: What's that? Linda: We need to talk about the Clive Awards. Nancy: Oh yes, let's. Linda: Congratulations, Nancy. Your play, This Mortal Life Also, was a finalist in the Clive Awards. That is so fun. And such an honor, isn't it? Nancy: It really was. It was the inaugural year for a national playwriting prize. And to be one of six finalists was really exciting. And I hope that recognition will be a stepping stone for theaters to be interested in producing the play. But yeah, absolutely wonderful. And I loved my correspondence with the staff of the Fellowship of Performing Artists, they were great, keeping me in the loop as I moved from an entry to a semi-finalist, then the finalist. So, it was a very good experience. And congratulations to the two winners of that award. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's getting you're getting that it out there, Nance. Nancy: Trying to. Linda: Little nibbles along the way. Nancy: Exactly, and maybe someday a nibble will be an actual bite on the hook. Linda: That would be good! Nancy: So, in other exciting news, that's kind of related to our podcast. I've been elected to the board of Humanities Nebraska, and our listeners right might remember that Humanities Nebraska is the organization is the organization that sponsors the Governor's Lecture in the Humanities here in Nebraska. And Candace Millard, the author of River of Doubt, and we had her on the front porch. She was also the 2022 speaker at that lecture. This past year, Amor Tolles, author of our February, 2023 book, Lincoln Highway was the speaker. So, this is a statewide board for Nebraska. I'm super excited to support their mission to help people explore what connects us and makes us human. Linda: Well, congratulations on that, Nancy. That's really exciting. I think they picked a good person. Ha ha ha. Nancy: Well, thank you. I'm really looking forward to it. Well, let's get on to our February book. This is the bestselling phenomenon, Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt. My In Real Life book club read this book and I loved it, so I suggested it for the front porch. Linda: Yes, you did. OK, this is an unusual book. Let's just say. Nancy: Yes. Linda: This is one book that I researched. Nancy: Oh, really? Linda: I did, because I'm like, what is this book? There's an octopus on the outside. Nancy: So, what did you research? Like to find out? Is it fiction, nonfiction? Linda: Yeah, is this a true story? Not true? What is it that I am going to be reading? Is this a self-help book? What is this? It talks really about this giant Pacific octopus that was rescued before he was put into this aquarium. His name is Marcellus. Now, I'm just going to say now as a disclaimer. If I say Marcello, it's very close. That's where I get my pizza. Okay, Marcellus, see, I have a hard time. Marcellus, that's the name of the octopus. Remarkably bright creature is what's on his tank in the aquarium. He's unhappy in his captivity at the aquarium. And what we meet in this book are, we meet lots of different people, but there's three main characters and they're kind of trapped, I guess I'd think of it as being stuck. They're kind of stuck because of their experiences in life. And what we see is what happens when these people, get connected with each other and this octopus. So, Tova is a widow. She cleans the aquarium at night. So, she's probably the major character. And Cameron is a young man who was abandoned by his mother when he was nine. And it's mostly about those two, but we're gonna talk about those two. We're also gonna talk about some of the other characters as well. Nancy: Those two, and then also Marcellus who I think of as the third main character really. Linda: Yeah, I guess he has a part, doesn't he? Nancy: Well, I really like this book because I feel like it has an incredibly warm and generous spirit about it and it shows us how these three individuals find their way to each other and they each create a new life for themselves that none of them imagined could have been possible. So for me, it's this beautiful story of how connections change us. Linda: Yeah, it gets them unstuck. It transforms their lives through this. And the octopus is a big part of what gets these people together. Nancy: Yeah. So, first question I have to ask you, In Lessons In Chemistry, we read from the point of view of Six-thirty, the dog. in The Island Of Missing Trees, we had the point of view of the fig tree. Now in Remarkably Bright Creatures, we have Marcellus the octopus and his point of view. What did you think of Marcellus? Linda: Well, I have to tell you, I thought of 630 the dog. As I was like, what is this with these authors? And then I'm like, I'm gonna ask Nancy on the front porch. Is this like a new trend to give animals or fig trees or whatever personalities in books? Is this like a thing or is this like a new wave? Nancy: It does seem to be a trend. I mean, just thinking of now three books that we've read that have all done very well on the New York Times bestseller list, creating a lot of buzz among the community of people who read books that I'm a part of, I would say, yes, this is definitely a new trend. It is, I think, a very inventive way of viewing humanity from a different perspective, The Dog, Six-thirty, The Fig Tree, and Marcellus, they all have quite a lot to say about humans in general, not always very complimentary. So I think it is a way that an author can make observations about humanity in general. Linda: Definitely I saw that in the fig tree. He was very observant. And in Six-thirty, he was very observant. This octopus is smart though. And so with his actions, he takes more of a character role, I think, because he's not like narrating or observing. He is interacting and he's problem solving to help these people get connected. So, his is a different kind of role. Nancy: Yeah, he has a lot of agency. He is making things happen. He is changing his environment and the environment of others. Linda: Right, so I found out that octopuses are smart. Is it octopuses? Nancy: I think it might be octopi. Linda: Octopi. So they're smart, but they're not smarter than humans apparently. The one that I read said maybe like problem solving skills of a five-year-old. Like I can understand how to unlock things, little puzzles or things like that. Like I can problem solve. I can't talk, obviously. But problem solving skills, we have some. Another one, like to like a cat or a dog. There's some problem solving skills there. But not to the level of Marcellus. Nancy: No, but of octopi, which are remarkably bright creatures, Marcellus is a remarkably, remarkably bright creature. Linda: Yes, like, Six-thirty, who knew 500 words. Nancy: Yeah, constantly increasing his vocabulary. We don't know too many dogs who have a vocabulary to the extent that Six-thirty does, that's for sure. Linda: So, it's a fictional book. We've learned that. Nancy: Well, I loved Marcellus. And you know how I also love the first chapter of any book because it sets the tone for what the book is about. And I have to say that, I'm not going to read the whole first chapter, but I want to read a couple of paragraphs of the first chapter because it is from Marcellus's point of view. And for me, this captures everything about who Marcellus is, starting with the little inscription at the top of the chapter, “Day 1299 of my captivity.” This is how it starts, which immediately, how wonderful is this? Okay. “Darkness suits me. Each evening, I await the click of the overhead lights, leaving only the glow from the main tank. Not perfect, but close enough. Almost darkness, like the middle bottom of the sea. I lived there before I was captured and imprisoned. I cannot remember yet I can still taste the untamed currents of the cold open water. Darkness runs through my blood. Who am I, you ask? My name is Marcellus. But most humans do not call me that. Typically, they call me ‘that guy.’ For example, ‘Look at that guy. There he is. You can just see his tentacles behind the rock.’ I am a giant Pacific octopus. I know this from the plaque on the wall beside my enclosure. I know what you are thinking. Yes, I can read. I can do many things you would not expect.” I mean, that's pretty great setting the tone. Linda: Okay, from a from a writer's point of view, what is it that you liked about that? What set the tone for you? Nancy: First of all, living in the aquarium, that he's counting the days of what he calls his captivity. So that is such a unique point of view. It's not like, oh, well, here I am swimming around happily in my little tank. No, here is a character who is resisting his current circumstance. And he doesn't really remember the ocean, but he knows he doesn't belong where he is now. It's the dark saltwater currents that are in his blood, not the water of the aquarium. And, he is rather dismissive of humans and we get a taste of this, that humans call him ‘that guy.’ It's like we're not smart enough as humans to really understand who he is or the depths of who he is. Linda: Well, we haven't set him up for success in his tank. Nancy: Now we do find out later that actually he was rescued. He was going to die. So he really did need to be there. Linda: For a time, I think he thought maybe he'd go back. Nancy: Yeah. But, I love that introduction. The first 1299 day of my captivity. It's just so beautiful in setting this tone. I felt that there were a lot of really memorable characters in this book and I really like that. In some books, the human characters, they're so unusual or phenomenal in ways that you don't really know anyone like them. And that's fun to read, you know, like, Addie LaRue. know, she lived forever, but we don't know anyone who lived together forever. So, it's fun to go on the ride to think about what would that be like. This book's really different though, because the people in this book, aside from Marcellus, I feel like they're so relatable, like we might know them. Tova, she's a widow, she recently lost her husband, and years ago, she lost her 18-year-old son. He vanished on a boat in the Puget Sound where she lives. She has some girlfriends. She's just trying to get through life. She doesn't have to work. She has enough money, but she likes to keep busy. So she has a job at the aquarium that she's very capable at. I think that's the kind of person many of us know, maybe not the specific details, but people who have been through loss, who are trying to get through life. Then there's Cameron. and he is this lost 30-year-old man. He has been making poor life choices his entire life. He's just been kicked out of the apartment he shared with his girlfriend and he's lost yet another job and that's why she kicks him out. So I think, yeah, we know young people who are lost who are just trying to figure out how to go through life and this book does helping us understand how they got to where they are and then opening up this vision for what their life can be. What did you think of these characters? Linda: Yeah, very likable. Very ordinary was what I thought sort of like an ordinary, this is a small town. People are doing their jobs every day. The grocery store guy sees everybody. He's a little nosy, but he knows everything about everybody. This is just sort of the small town environment that people, they just go through their lives with just an ordinary thing. But everybody's a little stuck. So, talking about groceries, of all of the characters in the book, I liked Ethan and then there's... Nancy: Did you? I love that you liked Ethan. Linda: He's nosy, gracious, stark-eyed, he's in everybody's business. He knows everybody. Nancy: Not in a mean way. I mean, he like genuinely is trying to be helpful, but he is nosy. Linda: He's a nice guy. He's friendly. He brings out everybody's groceries, but he's stuck too because he likes Tova, but he doesn't have the confidence or the self-esteem something to make himself known and to show interest. So he's a little bit timid. But even his character gets unstuck, which I was happy to see. He makes friends with Cameron and his life gets transformed, too. And so I was glad that his character had an arc in it and that he grew as a character along with, some of the other towns folks. So I think he was my favorite one. I always pick these odd people, don't I? Nancy: No, it's great though, because he was a great character. He was more of a supporting character, but what a great character. He was fully formed. You know who he is with his Scottish accent. Linda: Oh yes, let's give him a Scottish accent. Nancy: Yeah, he's a great character. Linda: I liked him. Nancy: I think my favorite character, I'm kind of split. I did love Tova and I feel like she's the main character. So she's an easy choice. But what I think I liked about her is she seemed so real to me the heartbreak of losing a child and not even knowing the details of what exactly happened to them, people in the community kind of assuming maybe he committed suicide. It's hard for families to come to terms with death. But she doesn't feel she's not coming to terms with it because people believe that he took his own life. She just thinks that doesn't make sense for her son. Not that suicide ever makes sense. That is a tragic instance in her life that she does not recover from. She has a loving marriage, her husband has died, and then her brother also dies during this novel. And she's trying to figure out how is she going to take care of herself as she is getting older? Because there's going to be no one there to take care of her. She does not want to rely on her girlfriends. And she decides well, she is going to join a retirement community where they can take care of her. And, I like that she's so thoughtful about her life. And she thinks about what her options are. And she believes she's making good choices for her life. But we find out that she's really making these choices with a limited understanding of what she means to the people in her life. I like how then she is moving in one direction and then is willing to make the change when she has more information and is willing to do something completely and entirely different than what she had expected. Linda: To me she ends up making the safe choice. Like survival, I have to take care of myself. These people can do it. This is my safe choice. This is what I'm going to do. And what she does is, she grows from, I always think of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. That's the safe choice. I need shelter, I need food, I need people to take care of me. But she doesn't end up there. She does sell the place, but she ends up in her own apartment with a brand-new boyfriend and a brand-new grandson and a brand-new... Well, the cat stays with her apparently. She evolves from that. You and I grew up in a small town and it's hard for people to see you sometimes in a different role. Where I think she gets kind of stuck with this issue of death in her life and what that has meant for her, is that because the town considers it suicide, they kind of bumble around her. They're not sure if they should be talking to her about her son. She's not sure she wants to bring it up. It feels like there's an uncomfortableness in the room when someone talks about, oh, their son is doing this, or their grandson, because she doesn't have that family with her. In fact, she doesn't even have her husband anymore. And so, there's a sense of they haven't overcome it. Like, they don't know what to do with this story in her life. And that kind of makes her stuck too. And her feeling like she doesn't really know where to go with this. Nancy: Yeah, I think that is a good way of looking at it, that the context of a small community is definitely part of what she's dealing with. Because these are people who have known her whole life, who knew her son, who knew her husband. And in small towns, it's easy to kind of get slotted in a particular situation. And that's who you are, and you don't change from that. Linda: It's hard to have people see you in a different way, and it's hard to grow sometimes because they know who you are. Nancy: I think this is an interesting book because it does have Marcellus on the cover, a giant Pacific octopus. And it is, in many descriptions that I've read, a friendship between an octopus and this widow, Tova. And that makes it sound kind of mystical or almost science fiction-y or silly. But I really bought into the way that Shelby Van Pelt describes the growing friendship between Tova and Marcellus. She saves him at one point, he saves her at another. They, of course, are never talking. It doesn't take the idea of friendship that far, but they are able to communicate through their behaviors. And I kind of like that idea. That it's what you do in a relationship that matters, not what you say. Linda: I liked that they touched each other and connected on a physical level. I liked that the suction cups, like that he was holding onto her tight enough and long enough that it left those suction cup marks and that she wore those. And that kind of helped her to continue to remember him in some ways. It wasn't like, I'll think about Marcellus when I clean his area a half hour every night. It kind of embedded into her in some way. And other people saw it too, which I thought was interesting that the author had other people kind of look at that and go, “Huh, wonder what that is about.” But it was the secret relationship that they had that she didn't really talk about. It was just their own secret kind of relationship that no one else had except for her and Marcellus. He chose her he was picky and he chose good. Nancy: You're right. They did have that physical touch between the two of them, which was interesting. You know, we'll have to ask Shelby Van Pelt about that suction cup mark and how that other people saw it too and what she was thinking. That's a really interesting observation, Linny. Linda: Well, I was glad that he didn't hold on to her tight enough. He was going to dip her in the water. I thought that might be where, seriously, I thought that might be where it was going, because there was a physical connection between them. And he had hid some of his artifacts in his little hiding area. And I couldn't figure out how he was going to get those to her to help her make connections with others or where this mystique was gonna really end up. Like how much, is it gonna be just a story of these people and him reaching out to her rather than going into a more fanciful kind of book? What did you think of the Cameron and his arc as a person because we do see that he changes all he has a lot of changing to do. Nancy: He does. And that was the other arc I was maybe going to mention as my favorite. I love Cameron as a character. I thought, I know this young man. I know this aimless young man who just can't seem to hold a job, who has been dealt a tough hand. His mom abandons him when he's nine. He does have a loving aunt who... She's a character. She does the best she can. She never really wanted to be a mom. She does love Cameron though, and he loves her. So, he does have that loving relationship, but he really misses his mom, doesn't know why she abandoned him, and he's never known who his father is. So, what might a young man who was raised with love, but maybe lacks some of these connections, what might his life look like? And I just thought she nailed young men who are kind of trying to find their place and really struggling to do so. His arc is wonderful because for me, he feels so real. I was glad that the author gave him this little romantic relationship with the surf shop owner. I really love seeing that develop. And kind of some of the missteps he makes along the way and the missteps she makes along the way, as well. I just, I thought that was really, really wonderful. Linda: Yeah, she kept his character very real, like his mouth on him. I thought he might tone down his mouth when he got around somebody at grandmother's age. Oh, no, no. His mouth was salty as the sea that they were living by. Woo! Nancy: Well, because his Aunt Jean had a salty mouth too. Linda: Well, yeah, well she raised him. And he's thinking big ticket, let's go get some money from wealthy, who I think is my dad. So what's wrong with my life? I need money. Okay, we know as the person reading this book, there's a lot that's going on here and the money is not gonna solve any of it. No, in fact, it's going to lead to more heartache. So thank goodness we didn't get the money because that would have been a disaster. But other changes do come to him, which is wonderful to see that, okay, now we've got a love interest. Now we've got a job. Now we've got family. Now we've got. you know, some self-esteem, we're starting to make some good choices here. I think who the love interest is. We're not running away from problems anymore. We were a runner before. Now we're returning. We're making better choices. We're making connections with people. I mean, you're 30 years old and your best friends are married and having a child. That's a different kind of, we need other people. Well, now we've got other people. We've got the grocery store, we've got the love interest, we've got the grandma, the town is starting to know who he is and accepting him. And you feel like maybe he's not had this before. But, tell me what you think, any more comments on Cameron? Nancy: I did like that Cameron had these best friends, that he was a part of a little triad all growing up through school. They came from very different situations, but he did have these two loving friends. Same with Tova. She has these wacky girlfriends who they are a hoot, some of them, but she has girlfriends and they're always giving her unwanted advice about what she should do. They feel like full human beings because they have lots of different types of relationships in their lives. And sometimes they are behaving well in those relationships and other times they make poor decisions that hurt others in those relationships. Linda: Yeah. I'm going to talk about Aunt Jeanne for a minute. I liked Ann Jeanne a lot because she did give him a foundation in which he understands what love is. Unconditional. I am your foundation. You're always welcome here. I will kick you in the butt when you need it, but there is love in this house. So, he does have a strong foundation in her. And that helps him then to overcome some of the challenges and decisions that he's made so that he can change later on. He does have her as a fantastic person in his life. So, kudos to her, she's done a great job. But what I wanted to say was that I was glad that Aunt Jeanne got a little bit of an arc too. And that she finds love and that she is done now raising Cameron. She's seen him bumble along. She's tried her best to motivate, to redirect, to give him the foundation, to help him try to get to that next step, to encourage. She does a lot right. But I love the fact that we touch base with her several times in the book and that she starts growing at a different way too. And I think that surprises Cameron. And that could be part of the reason why he becomes unstuck later too. He's like, wait, what? She's got a life? What's she doing? Where are you going? Who are you with? Nancy: The best friends are having a baby. Aunt Jeanne is having a love affair. Like, yeah, the people in his life, they're making changes, right? Linda: You do see him make comparisons of where he is and then reflecting on these other people. And just like synergy, I think that it does impact him at some level to kick himself in the butt and make some choices that are gonna be positive for him. Nancy: So, one of my favorite interactions between characters in this book is between Tova and Cameron. So. it starts out Tova is just training him to take over her janitorial role because she's moving to this retirement community. But she has very high expectations. She is very fastidious. And here comes along Cameron, who only does the minimum and usually not even that when it comes to this job. Like never, it's trash. It doesn't matter how we bag it up. Linda: It's trash. It's trash. We're just gonna get it done. Nancy: Cameron has never been on time a day in his life for any job, part of the reason why he's always being fired. So, her high expectations start shaping him into someone who begins to learn responsibility and begins to have pride in his work and becomes proud. Oh, he is now bagged the trash in a way that is acceptable to Tova. They formed this really nice relationship, him as trainee, her as trainer, but he rashly decides he's gonna quit because he doesn't get a promotion that he's expecting. So, he figures they hate him. He's just going to leave. And she says, you can't leave without letting Terry know. And he says, fine, I'll leave him a note. And so, Tova tells him, “Leaving your boss high and dry without proper notice, you're better than that.” Cameron, falling back into his old pattern, says, “’No, I'm not.’ His voice cracks. He tosses the paper onto the desk. ‘I'm really not.’” Here she is saying, you're better. And he's fallen back to his old patterns. No, this is who I am. Linda: This is what I do. Hahaha. Nancy: This is what I do. And she's fighting for him. She's fighting for him to become a different person. And I just, oh, I just love that relationship. Linda: Yeah, it does remind you of Aunt Jeanne, maybe that's why he receives it differently. He has these people that believe in him and he doesn't believe in himself. He'll accept, this is just what I do. They can find somebody else to bag the garbage. But you can't, but he doesn't have the maturity either. But even with that said, he believes that he's not that person because he hasn't been. And he doesn't see that it really is him that needs to change his behavior and become a better person. But I think because of Aunt Jeanne, I think she is foundational that there's in this Tova that have been that needle in his side to keep prompting him to do better, that somehow, he receives that and he turns around and he returns to work. And she took that paper off that desk. She believed in him enough to do that. Nancy: So, I mentioned a little earlier something about friends helping one another and then sometimes hurting one another. And there was one scene in this book that I thought was so interesting. That's when Tova is over at Ethan's house. He takes a phone call and she, being Tova, she always wants to be busy. So, she decides she's going to clean up. she finds one of Ethan's old t-shirts that just is ratty, ratty. Linda: It's under the sink. That's where you put your rags. Nancy: Right? She uses it to clean up, ruins the shirt, and it's his prized concert t-shirt. Linda: Grateful Dead. Nancy: And ruins this priceless shirt of his. Maybe the one thing in his life that he really cares about, clearly that's why he kept it under the sink, safe and sound. So this devastates him. And she ends up spending, thousands of dollars to replace the shirt, finding a new one on a fan site. But I thought, I thought that scene was so interesting, how she is trying to be helpful. She and Ethan are kind of getting closer. And then you do things that kind of hurt the other person that you never imagined is going to hurt them. I thought that was such an interesting scene. What did you think about that scene? I mean, nothing relied on that scene, you know? Linda: It could, yeah, you think it could have been edited out of the book. Nancy: Yeah. Linda: Tova was acting like Tova. I busy myself. I clean. I am being helpful. I know how to do this. Mmmmmm, I made a mistake. And Tova fashion, she's going to correct it. That's not a different part of her personality. I am a responsible woman. I'm going to take care of this. Now she doesn't know the shirt is like $10,000. And she has to drive like three hours to pick it. She doesn't even know how to do the Facebook or internet, wherever she finds the shirt. I think there might be a thread here. I'd like to hear what the author thinks about the scene of I act in predictable ways. I'm not flexible. Like I act the way I act, but that doesn't always work. And so I need to grow and change or be more aware. And it kind of fits into that growing and developing. So I think that it has to do with her predictable, not rigid, I wouldn't call her rigid. but just that she, this is the way she is, and this is the way she does things. And now she has this relationship with this person. It's gonna be different. This isn't her husband and this isn't her house, but somehow she's unaware that maybe she shouldn't be cleaning someone else's house. That might be offensive. I just think it shows that she's limited in some ways and that she needs to grow and change in maybe some other ways. Are you buying that at all? Or do you think I'm off the rocker? Nancy: No, I'm buying that. And I think that I like this idea of she behaves in internally consistent ways, ways that she believes are who she is. And she has always gotten predictable results. So that's the positive feedback loop for her. I do this, this happens, this is what I expect. I do it like this is very predictable. And this is one instance where she does the predictable thing, but she gets an unexpected result. And then what is she going to do with that? Linda: Yep, she does a great thing with that, which is why we like her so much. Nancy: She's absolutely lovely. Linda: Did you cry at the end? Nancy: Yes, I cried at the end. Did you? Linda: No. Nancy: Really? Linda: I think he, he died. Well, I don't know why I would cry. He got to return to the ocean. That's where he wanted to go. Octopus don't live very long. So, he was gonna die. He knew he was gonna die. He knew his days were numbered from chapter one. The very first thing we know is that his days are numbered and he knows the number and he knows he's dying. So, I'm glad that he gets to return to the ocean and take his last salty breathing in there. Nancy: Well, I don't cry sad tears at that. I cry happy tears. And this is not so different from A Man Called Ove. For this, I'm crying because of the beauty of him having his heart's desire that he states in the first sentences of the first chapter, and that is to feel those deep saltwater currents. And all the while, he's also done things that have put that impossible dream at risk. I mean, he's done some things that he is going to sacrifice his life to help Tova and never have the dream of returning to the ocean. And so I think that idea of sacrifice is also one that also often gets me choked up. Linda: Oh, well, I just think he lived a good life. And he was happy to be back in the salty ocean. I did find it endearing that she rescued him. She saw his value, his captivity. She was connected enough to know his replacement is here. And so, to free him at the end was like her being free. She was less bound up. She was able to move on. And so. that part of the story where he becomes free, Cameron is now free, Ethan has now got the self-esteem to have a relationship with Tova. Tova doesn't have to go into the retirement home. Nancy: And Tova has been freed from so much grief to have a better understanding of what happened to her 18-year-old son. Linda: Yeah, she has a little bit, I would say, a different narrative of kind of coming to peace with what may have happened. She's never really going to know, but what story is she going to tell herself about it? She has a sort of some possibilities of a story that she can now put together to help her move on. So, I kind of took it as we're all freer now and we're all happier. So maybe I was looking at the story of, oh, this is nice. Everybody gets a new life now and, you know, a new fresh start. Well, you know, Nance, next month, or our next drop this month on this book, we're going to have the author. And I'm interested in hearing what she says about all of these things. Like, why did she put the t-shirt in there? And why did she think it was important to free Marcellus at the end of the book? I think I know, but I would like to hear her thoughts on it. But I think it would be great if our readers could ask us some questions to ask the author. I would be interested in hearing their questions, but also their emotional response, like what were the tears about? What did you enjoy most about this book? And what would you like to ask the author about? So stop on our website and put in some questions. We'll make sure that we ask Shelby them. Nancy: And we've already gotten some good questions on our Facebook page but definitely. Yeah, go to our website to the contact us and fill out the little text form with questions you might have or go to our Facebook page. And we'll have a good time chatting with Shelby about this. Well everyone, thanks for listening. Our website is frontporchbookclub.com Linda: Our episodes come out twice a month, on the first and third Wednesdays of each month. Nancy: See you next time, Linny. Linda: All right, see you, happy reading. Nancy: Bye bye.